The first time Jamie Pool died, he was wearing a suit.
That suit turned out to be the difference between his cardiac arrest going unnoticed by passers-by, and him getting medical help that would save his life. Jamie suffers from a heart condition called hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, an often undetectable, but fairly widespread, genetic disease that causes unpredictable cardiac arrests.
Today Jamie copes with his illness through the use of a subcutaneous device called an implantable cardioverter-defibrillator (ICD) – essentially a defibrillator machine that is permanently attached to his heart. But over the last decade, Jamie experienced dying nine times – four of which happened on consecutive Thursdays!
In this episode of Rob Konrad: Conversations, Jamie talks to Rob about near-death experiences, his thoughts on the afterlife ,coincidences that feel supernatural, and having astonishingly good luck. He tells rob what it feels like to die, and how he finds meaning in life without religious belief, and without being able to plan a future with any certainty.
Click on the video above to listen to the episode – and join the conversation, NOW!
00:00:00 Channel Teaser
00:02:05 What’s it like to die? It’s not easy to get a reliable answer
00:03:31 A heart rhythm that’s not sustainable for life
00:05:04 The scariest 8 seconds Jamie Poole lives through again and again
00:07:10 An atheist in purgatory in New York City
00:08:14 Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy: the often undetectable disease that affects at least one in 500 people
... read more....
00:11:25 On growing up believing that everyone hurts when they run
00:12:25 A fatal condition that could have struck at any moment, but was only diagnosed when Jamie was 20
00:14:10 How wearing a suit saved Jamie’s life after his first cardiac arrest
00:16:20 Surviving the unsurvivable, cryotherapy, and a week in a coma
00:21:27 Waking up as a cyborg: the implantable cardioverter-defibrillator (ICD)
00:24:07 18 months pass before Jamie’s second cardiac arrest
00:28:27 Jamie buys a one-way ticket to London
00:31:39 Exactly 18 months after the second cardiac arrest, the third one arrives
00:35:33 Dying four Thursday mornings in a row
00:38:04 A brief recovery gives way to two more cardiac arrests
00:41:39 The Thursday curse follows Jamie to Australia
00:44:10 About the time Jamie had his chest hair shaved in an airport in front of 300 people
00:46:50 How a group of doctors tried to kill Jamie (legally)
00:47:40 Considering a heart transplant as the only viable long-term option
00:50:27 Another dangerous doctor puts him on a treadmill and turns off the ICD
00:52:58 How living so close to death has changed Jamie as a person
00:55:46 “It’s not going to save you every time”
00:56:58 The difference between an ICD and a pacemaker
00:58:22 Preparing for death in the digital age
01:01:26 Why Jamie thinks we should all become organ donors
01:03:10 Planning your transplant according to the Goldilocks scale
01:05:35 The responsibility of doing justice to another person’s heart
01:07:26 Remaining “lighthearted”
01:10:58 Doing good in death by becoming an organ donor
01:12:32 The possibility of life without a heart: stem cells and Elvad Machines
01:13:29 Weighing up solutions from the black market
01:15:38 God, the afterlife and hate mail from China
01:16:34 Why his experiences of death have made Jamie a stronger atheist
01:18:15 Confirmation bias in near-death experiences
01:20:17 Why common effects of psychedelic drugs disprove religious beliefs
01:22:52 How Jamie’s condition has affected his social life
01:25:21 The importance of laughing in the face of death
01:26:35 “No worries”: an Australian mantra
01:28:36 The challenge of planning a future when you’ve already died nine times
01:31:57 Trying to tell the difference between anxiety and cardiac arrest
01:33:10 Standing still in the middle of traffic in Trafalgar Square
01:35:06 How Jamie’s illness has lead to a form of PTSD
01:37:13 The greatest danger to those who have the disease but don’t know, is believing that cardiac arrests only happen to 65-year-olds who live off junk food.
01:39:10 Mad props for Bill Nye, Stephen Fry and an Neil Degrasse Tyson
01:41:00 A message of hope and meaning: “take solace in the fact that you’re alive at all”
Listen as Podcast
Jamie Poole is a 30-year-old Australian living in London, and working for an advertising agency. When he was 20, he was diagnosed with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy following a sudden cardiac arrest that he miraculously survived. Since then, he has suffered a further eight cardiac arrests, experiencing a period of dying before being revived each time by an implanted defibrillator device. Jamie’s experiences of dying share characteristics with what people with religious beliefs have described as near-death experiences of an afterlife. But Jamie’s closeness to death has only reinforced his rejection of religion and his insistence on living in the here and now.
Connect with Jamie
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiepoole/
Show / Hide Full Transcript
2:02 Rob Konrad
Hi welcome, this is Rob Konrad from Switzerland. There is one question that I'm sure everyone, at least at some point in their life has asked and that is, what it's like to die? It's quite hard to get a reliable answer to that because usually people who have died, well, they're dead, they're not really helpful in finding the answers. But today I'm going to talk to someone who might be able to answer this question because he has died not once, but nine times actually. Jamie Poole was born with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, a heart condition that's not even that rare, and often goes unnoticed, but sometimes in more severe form leads to cardiac arrest, and the person dying, which happened to Jamie the first time when he was 20 years old and happened eight more times in 10 years since. So we'll talk about death I guess and life and what's it like to live with the condition like this and much more. Thank you so much for taking the time, Jamie Poole.
2:57 Jamie Poole
Hi, yeah. Thanks for having me.
3:01 Rob Konrad
Thanks for taking time. I guess the elephant question in the room is, what's it like to die? What does dying feel like?
3:09 Jamie Poole
Yeah, I mean, I guess, I know you're going to get to the email straightaway so I probably should clarify first that what I experienced is a cardiac arrest. So I go into what's called, the polymorphic vt, or vf which has ventricular fibrillation or ventricular tachycardia, which basically just means my heart rate goes into a rhythm that's not sustainable for life, and either I'm going to get that corrected externally through a defibrillator, or I will die. But I think there's a lot of people that do hear my story online and do comment that I can't believe he didn't die because he'd be dead and I'm like, well, it's a cardiac arrest and if I didn't get the intervention, I would be dead. So it's it's definitely that's the first clarification on that. It's a bit of ____ .
4:00 Jamie Poole
But then in terms of what it is to experience those, it's, you know, I call it I guess I've got enough practice now these days to call it the eight seconds of dying. And that _____ is conversation I had with a cardiologist once who said that I've got an ICD implanted so it's like a little box that sits here and it will charge up an electric shock and so to give me a shock when my heart needs to reset that dangerous rhythm. And so he said that it takes about eight seconds for that to charge up once it's detected that I'm in a cardiac arrest and so for those eight seconds sometimes I've been awake for to experience all those eight seconds and I've gone into cardiac arrest and so I'm said like you know you're going through this feeling of like where I've got eight seconds left to live what do you do and so you know people ask, do you know if you're going to make it or not and you're like well, you don't really, like you hope and the device is obviously very advanced and very capable of doing it. But you just you still you've got to live with those eight seconds of not knowing and it's the scariest, dread feeling you get.
5:14 Jamie Poole
There have been some instances where doctors have tried to ask me to push through those eight seconds and keep doing what I was doing, even when I felt those eight seconds. But I can't even describe to people that the dread and the fear that you feel when you just like you just just stomach drops. You get sick and I think, doctors have said that that's because when you do go into cardiac arrest, and your heart starts to struggle, all of the blood in your body gets diverted back up to your heart and your lungs to try and keep the important things still running. And so if you've got you know your stomach, it will get upset you start to go hypoxic, you know, your brain doesn't get enough blood anymore and enough oxygen so you get dread feeling sickness it's just it's not a it's not a fun experience. I wouldn't recommend that to anybody.
6:07 Rob Konrad
And, and but there are instances where you are ___ _____ We talked before as you mentioned that you had these almost weird dream experiences and then you realize, oh, this is not this is not is actually not happening.
6:19 Jamie Poole
Yeah definitely yeah i mean, I consider myself an atheist I don't necessarily believe in this afterlife near death experiences that some people have experienced but I definitely have been through those visions I guess or those experiences in that yeah definitely you know sometimes there was one where I was walking up the stairs of my office and then I went to New York and it was loud like I could hear the car horns, I could see the LA taxis, I looked up and there was the train flying over me and I took back 10 seconds and then I woke up and I was like I'm back in London, I'm not actually hit like, I never went to New York. And I guess that could be considered an out of body experience or, you know, I didn't know even purgatory if you want to think that purgatory is New York City. Sorry to any New Yorkers out there but I'm just saying you might be in purgatory.
7:21 Jamie Poole
And then yeah and other times I've had the feelings of the golden light so the most recent one that happened was on the treadmill and so I went down on the treadmill just, I don't really remember like any specifics like I did the the New York example but it was just a yellow golden color is what I remember like a warmth and a color and that's what I remember from that experience and so again, you know, that's does sound very similar to how some people do describe the supernatural experiences so, I can definitely understand where they may be coming from, but I don't necessarily believe there's anything magical or supernatural about them at all.
8:02 Rob Konrad
Okay, so maybe let's go back a bit and talk about your condition. So you mentioned it's something that's quite common. It's like one in 500 or something.
8:13 Jamie Poole
Yeah. So I mean, here in the UK, at least it's one in 500. I wouldn't be certain of the worldwide stats but I've been told it's a relatively common heart condition, and it's a congenital heart disease so it's passed down through the genes, through your family. And yeah, so I think while the actual disease is common, you know, members of my family and other people that I've met, who have the disease can go their entire lives without even knowing they have it and even experiencing any problems with it. So it's there's a very varied scale on how much you get affected by it. And unfortunately, I think I'm at the wrong end of the scale on that side of things. But yeah, there's definitely situations where you can probably go with living a normal life with the condition.
9:02 Rob Konrad
Because of that condition runs in your family, actually.
9:04 Jamie Poole
Yeah. So it's, it's weird because I think I mean, I'm not a doctor or in the cardiology field, but from what I've been told, it's a relatively new discovery. And I think in terms of, I think it's 20 or 30 years ago that they really started to do research on this. And I've got family members, I had a cousin who before I was born, died from a cot death and what they attributed as a cot death when he was three years old, and my and his mother, my auntie, does have the condition and she then later suffered problems from it as well and went into heart failure. And so in hindsight, they realize that perhaps her son didn't die of a cot death, he died of a sudden cardiac arrest that like I've experienced and unfortunately, they didn't know how to diagnose that or to prove that back in those days. So yeah, I think it's definitely, knowledge is always getting better of it, but it's something that runs through our family I think for as long as our current generation is alive.
10:07 Jamie Poole
And I've got a family another one of my aunties whose sons and daughters also have the condition to a severe extent. One of my cousins has had a heart transplant quite young and another couple of cousins have the ICD implanted and have had a few cardiac arrests themselves. So unfortunately, our family got the short end of the stick on the genes for this particular disease.
10:33 Rob Konrad
Okay. Okay. And you were 20 when you had your first cardiac arrest, right?
10:40 Jamie Poole
Yeah, yeah it's crazy looking back and there were signs when I was growing up, and it's hard to again, you know, going back to that idea that perhaps they didn't really know how to identify it. And, I used to be really active child and played every sport that I could. I was, quite into soccer or football and cricket and played in all the local competitions and I remember like it was always hard to run for me like and a lot of these things I guess even to this day, I still, it's one of the biggest challenges when I come to this is like, am I actually feeling it worse than other people feeling it. You don't have that you know, so when you're a kid and you say, oh, it hurts to run, you have to just, you kind of just want to keep it to yourself, because you just like, oh, well, it hurts for everybody and you're just being a little bit of a suck about it. So, you know, and little things like that.
11:38 Jamie Poole
And there was a case where I couldn't breathe once in a cinema and I really struggled to breathe and I don't know what exactly happened, but we went to the doctors and they prescribed a puffer for asthma and I didn't have asthma and after a month we went off and I never got the symptoms again, but you know, maybe that was another early sign of of this condition and yeah, so, all through my life and then, even going through my teenage years, my number one and two preferences for jobs that I wanted to be when I grow up was either in the Air Force or as a police officer and I was lucky enough to go through the Australian Air Force application process, and I got recommended to become an officer in the Air Force and went through the whole process and they didn't pick it up once in the medical testing that I had this condition and so it really struck me.
12:34 Jamie Poole
It's like, well, that opportunity didn't play out but what if I was in a $2 billion jet when I had the cardiac arrest and it's crazy that this thing was with me this whole time and only when until I was 20 did it decide to rear its head and come out.
12:53 Rob Konrad
Okay, and what happened when you were at 20? Can you describe that experience?
12:57 Jamie Poole
Yeah, so its, I mean, it's hard to say because I was in a coma for a week after I had this event, and it was scary. They told my mom and my family that I wouldn't wake up the same, they were preparing her to say that I would have severe brain damage from the amount of time that I went without oxygen and so they were really surprised that I was even awake. But I'd have suffered memory loss from it so I definitely, I can't remember a month before the event. I can't remember the day and I can't remember a week or two afterwards and really lost that memory.
13:34 Jamie Poole
And it's quite funny now, my friends come in and there was a football grand final on the weekend that I had the cardiac arrest and or the week before, the weekend before I had the cardiac arrest. And I was like, oh, who won the football? And then I was like, oh, did we do anything? And everyone's like, yeah, we went to your house for a party, don't you remember? And I like no, you never come to my house for a party. Since when do we have parties in my house. That's really interesting. But yeah, unfortunately, don't remember that much.
14:05 Jamie Poole
I do obviously know the details that I was on my way to an internship in the city. So I was at the local train station, just getting the normal commute into work. And I was running, there's an overpass to get to the next platform. So, I think I had to jog up the stairs over the past and moved on to the next platform. And as I was moving over, I spoke to a couple who were in front of me, a couple of weeks later, and they said that I went down on one knee, and they've seen that and they turned around and they asked if I was okay, and apparently I've stood straight back up again and said, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. And then as soon as I said that, I took a few more steps turned, hit the wall and just walked into the wall and then collapsed down for good and you know, it's, it's interesting that I was saying that, people were walking around me and over me and they, and even they themselves, they say, if I wasn't wearing a suit that day, they wouldn't have actually stopped for me they may have thought I was just on drugs or drunk. It's quite a shocking idea that a suit saved my life. Quite literally. Luckily I wore a suit that day.
15:18 Jamie Poole
I actually still have the t shirt, I've got the actual t shirt I was wearing the paramedics obviously when they came to finally do the CPR and they ripped it open and it's all torn to shreds and it was my favorite t shirt. So after I wake up my one of my first questions was like, where's my t shirt? Like, where's the shirt? And so I still got it now with me, like now in London, 10 years later, it's sitting on my bedside table. A nice little keepsake to know where I've come from. Yeah.
15:46 Rob Konrad
And so how long, how much time between when you kind of collapsed and when the paramedics arrived? How much time had passed?
15:57 Jamie Poole
Yeah, this is so, I mean, I was told that it was quite a long time from the start, so that's why they were telling my family that I was probably going to wake up with brain damage and I think, early figures I'd heard was 45 minutes that I was out of it before they bring me back and that always shocked me.
16:20 Jamie Poole
And they broke down the odds. Around the world globally if you have an out of home cardiac arrest and you don't have a defibrillator and plant it the chances of survival just full stop are 10%. So only one in 10 people survive these events normally, and then if you require more than 15 minutes CPR or if you don't get that attention you need straight away the chances drop down 4%, 1% and so, even lower than 1% and then, for then after that to wake up without any brain damage, at least I think I haven't gotten any brain damage. Yeah, to wake up every day, and think, I was really, really super lucky.
16:57 Jamie Poole
But yeah, so it wasn't until last year that I actually got the official paramedics report from the events and eight years later until I got the report. And it's just a super interesting read that I think it took them eight minutes to get to me originally. And so that's eight minutes without any support. I asked the couple who were in front of me, when I met them, did you start CPR? And they said, no. So, you know, like, I have to imagine somebody did some CPR initially, otherwise, I shouldn't be here but yeah, it took eight minutes for the paramedics to get there and then it took the 19 minutes for them to get a set of register bolt rhythm on that took six shocks they shot me with five shots of adrenaline and yeah, so, reading that report it's crazy so that of how many steps and I think overall it took about 38 minutes from me going down like as a notable time when they actually called the ambulance to when the ambulance had me in. I forget the actual medical term, but like in a rhythm suitable for transport. So it's still not, you're still obviously not very healthy, or safe, but they feel capable to pick you up and move you to the hospital. So yeah, so that process took 38 minutes.
18:21 Jamie Poole
And then obviously I was in, as soon as I got to the hospital, they put me in a cryotherapy, I think it's called or something similar to that where they basically just put me in an ice bath and cooled my brain down, made sure to reduce any swelling and things like that. And then they put me into a medically induced coma to recover from that. And yeah, a week later, I woke up and I was just amazed like I can't even, they must have done everything perfectly like they've obviously done everything perfectly for after I've read that report. And knowing where I've come to now, I'm healthy, I'm alive or how healthy in that sense, but yeah, it's just crazy.
19:05 Rob Konrad
So what was your first memory when you woke up? Or,how did you feel when you woke up? Did you do realize where you were?
19:13 Jamie Poole
No. Yeah, it was weird. It was, I wake up and I probably didn't help my mom's fears that I might have brain damage because I think, I was obviously very drugged out on the different medications they had me on and I think one of my friends came in, and I was saying that, like, I just kept asking, like, oh, cool, how you been? What do you been up to? And then my friend would answer oh, I've been doing such and such. And I'd be like, oh, cool. So how have you been? What have you been up to? And then I just kept repeating the same question over and over again. So that probably didn't help.
19:50 Jamie Poole
But yeah, I do remember one of the first memories I remember the nurse coming in to do a brain function test. They asked me a series of questions, just really basic general knowledge stuff that, I guess indicates where my brain function is at and I got 9 out of 10. And actually I answered I think the question was, who was the Prime Minister of Australia? So this happened in Australia at the time and I was like George Bush. They just looked around like, oh, wait, what? So I got that wrong and I think that counted as a soft fail on that side of things.
20:28 Jamie Poole
But then there was yeah, obviously after that about three – so interesting enough for me, I didn't realize this was the thing but the paramedics actually fractured three of my ribs. So I didn't even know that was the thing that when you do CPR that you might push hard enough to actually fracture somebody's ribs and so they had fractured three of my ribs and so I just remember that first month out of hospital being strapped up around the chest just hurting, couldn't every time I had to cough or sneeze I was bracing myself, just pain for those first few weeks. And yeah, and I think a little bit of paranoia and fear, because I had to come to terms with living with this box that is, like, at the time, I thought it was a little ticking time bomb. I thought one day it is going to shock me. Is it going to hurt? What's it going to feel like and so, a lot of bit of confusion and just a bit of fear, and that as well.
21:23 Rob Konrad
So they implanted that device right after the first incident?
21:27 Jamie Poole
Yeah, so while I was unconscious, so I just woke up with the device. I think they discovered that I had this hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and it was thick enough and obviously because I'd had a sudden cardiac thing. Even just the fact of having the cardiac arrest out of home is just immediate qualification to put one in. I'm not sure if they knew I would have it again. But I think it's obviously _____ so they imagined that it was going to happen again. So yeah, I woke up with this again so ribs strapping and then a shoulder strapping with this little box sticking out of my chest which is another thing to get used to and.
22:09 Rob Konrad
So it's an external box and then a little wire goes in your chest?
22:13 Jamie Poole
No. So it's subcutaneous. So, not being in the medical industry I think it's underneath a layer of skin and fat and a bit above the muscle and sits and so it does bulge out a little bit and then the wire I think goes through one of the veins or the arteries that then leads straight into the heart. And it's quite scary getting an X ray sometimes because you see it and that's like metal chain that ends down into this little piece of barbed wire down the bottom and you can see it right inside your heart. I don't know if that's safe, but I guess I'll just take your word for it. Exactly.
22:56 Rob Konrad
But then how much time I mean, obviously you recovered from the first cardiac arrest. Then how much time passed till the second one?
23:05 Jamie Poole
Yes, it was 18 months actually. And, at that point yeah, I went back to my old ways I guess, and so plenty of exercise, typical, I was 20 so, going out, partying and I remember specifically my friends wanted to walk out one of our local mountains. Back in Australia, we've got a mountain range nearby. And I not only did I walk up it within that, but I was practically high on Red Bull and I hadn't slept in 24 hours and I still managed to and nothing happened. These little events where it's like, maybe I should have been a little bit more cautious but then again, nothing happened. So it was 18 months later and I'd almost completely forgotten about it. I've done crazy stuff now and nothing's gone wrong so it reduced my fear in that well, if I can climb up a mountain after not sleeping for 24 hours, then I should be pretty fine doing my normal day to day.
24:10 Jamie Poole
And yeah, I was at my cousins. I took my computer over and we hooked it up for a LAN gaming party. Very unhealthy day, I think we had like KFC for lunch and pizza for dinner, and lollies and sweets, candies, more Red Bull. And I remember about six in the morning we're like, okay, well, let's go to bed, let's call it a day. And so I went downstairs over his apartment, and I forgot my phone. So I jogged back up the stairs and then got my phone, jog back downstairs. And as soon as I got back downstairs after that going up and down, I felt what I now recognize as those eight seconds but at the time I didn't know what that feeling was. And my first reaction was actually god I'm getting fat. Like I'm getting, I can't even run up the stairs anymore without losing my breath. And so I was like right I need to go to the gym next day and get some exercise but I was like, I'll go lay down in the bed and just see if I can calm down and go back to normal. And I laid down for a few seconds and it didn't go back to normal so I was like well I haven't taken my medication yet, so I better go and take my heart medication. So I went into the kitchen to get a glass and remember reaching out to the cabinet to get a glass out of the cabinet and everything just got really loud and sound of blood rushing to my, it was just a really weird experience but so just remember everything getting loud and then suddenly everything was dead quiet and I woke up and I was staring at the roof of the kitchen, my head was jammed under one of the cupboards and immediately just like okay, I think I know what happened.
26:05 Jamie Poole
I guess the initial shock but still that like it's a really, it's probably like the one of the weirdest feelings I've ever had in my life is the thought that I wasn't sure what reality was. When I woke up, I thought to myself, did I actually go to my cousin's last night? Did I have a party last night? Because right now I felt like I just had eight hours sleep and that wouldn't make sense if I was at my cousin's all night. I felt like I had a really nice sleep and then I was like wait, I'm staring at the roof. Oh, okay. I see what's going on here. And at the time again, obviously being the first time this has happened since the the big one at the start, I was obviously a bit frightened and I don't, you don't typically have to call the paramedics after these events because the ICD should technically just take care of it. But yeah, I was just a bit afraid and wanted to have the option of should I just suck it up and crawl over to the phone to call the paramedics. So, just yell for my cousin to come downstairs and help me. So I guess probably more rightly I started ___ yelling for my cousin to come down and help me out. Yeah, that was definitely the first time it sunk in that, okay, I've got a like, this is a long term thing that's going to keep happening and I need to take it a bit more seriously.
27:32 Rob Konrad
And after that you had a series of cardiac events at one point like five within a few days.
27:38 Jamie Poole
Yes. I mean, again, it's just this weird thing where, this was another 18 months after that instance, and what made a big change in my life. I was working at an advertising agency in my local town and it was a very slow business there. A lot of people in my local town are older and I work in digital, advertising. So these people struggled to turn on a computer let alone buy or make sales using digital means so business was a little bit slow and they give you this tip, like why don't you move to London. I was like well I never really thought about it to be honest, that never crossed my mind.
28:27 Jamie Poole
So in Australia at least Melbourne is your big advertising capital. Sydney as well but Melbourne mostly. And from where I live, Melbourne is a three day drive to get to Melbourne. So if I wanted to make my stuff down to Melbourne, I would have had to do a three days drive to get there. Or I thought to myself or why not just pack up everything and take a three day flight and go to London instead and follow this advice. I applied for a visa on a whim and I was like I'm not really sure if I'm going to get approved, but I'll go for it. And then two weeks later, the visa came back and it was all approved. And I don't know, I just got this bug and I got the visa on the Wednesday. On the Thursday, I went to a travel agent and said, I want a one way ticket to London. And then on the next Saturday, I left and everyone was a bit shocked, they're just like, I'm fine. I'm going to London next week, like for good. I'll see you later.
29:28 Jamie Poole
And yes, again, it's just, 18 months have gone by, I just moved to London, had 50 kilograms of luggage. I bought a second bag so I had massive luggage with me and some of these early hotels you know, one thing that you'll find if you like, people who live in London will know, it's not very friendly to people who don't like stairs. And so every train station, you know, especially six years ago, it's gotten a little bit better now, but six years ago, none of the train stations I had to go to, had stairs. So I try and carry these 50 kilograms worth of luggage up and down flights of stairs through little tunnels, up more hills. None of the hotels that I stayed, I stayed at cheaper hotels because I just had a few paychecks with me. I didn't save up for it and so I stayed at cheaper hotels and they didn't have any stairs so I've carried this 50 kilograms or luggage everywhere with me and nothing happens.
30:27 Jamie Poole
No shock, no cardiac arrest no nothing and then 18 months after that original out of the first one, I got a job and I was working at an agency. I was walking on my way there and again, I'd forgotten about it, but I did, I felt that feeling and I was like, okay, I kind of know what that feeling is now. But again, this is only the second time I felt it so my first reaction was more, oh I'm unfit, anything wrong is happening, I've got to stop eating those chips, I've got to get, this diet in London hasn't helped me out. But I do remember at the time and I find it kind of funny in retrospect that I looked in the mirror, I looked into a window in a shop front that I was next to when I felt this feeling and I looked white. Like I was just pale, like ghastly pale and you think I look white now like I was you know there was a noticeable like paleness to my skin. And I didn't think anything of the time again, I just thought, God, I need to get more sun, I need to go get a spray tan or something.
31:39 Jamie Poole
And so I kept walking and I rounded the corner of the office and I saw a couple of colleagues sitting, having a cigarette in the morning over the sides. And I was like, okay, well, I'll go say hello to them and hopefully the process of just going and sitting down with them will help everything calm down and go back to normal. And unfortunately, from what I've been told later, is that once you go into these abnormal rhythms, it's especially with a Vf it's near impossible for it to come back naturally. You're either going to fall and die, or you get a defibrillation or something to stop it from happening. It's not just going to go away. So yeah, I sat there and it got worse and I felt that coming and then I passed out for a few seconds. When I woke up, one of my colleagues was like, oh, you alright? And I was like I think I just died.
32:34 Jamie Poole
I took a moment and ran upstairs and again, naturally they called the paramedics. At this point, I was like, I don't need a paramedic but they called one. And from that I took yeah, so I mean this is, it's partly my fault, so from then a week later, this was on a Thursday, I went back to work on the Monday the next week. I probably should have taken a few more days off but then I went through the week fine, and then come the next the exact same next Thursday, the exact same time in the morning, I got to my office and this was the event where I was walking up the stairs and I felt fine, I felt really good. Normally I'm a little bit hesitant with stairs just because of again, it feels hard, so I take my time, but I felt really good this time. And then just, I think, yeah, I just woke up at the bottom of the stairwell.
33:29 Jamie Poole
So again, it's just one of those moments where you put two and two together and you're like, right? And so I sprawled in this really awkward position up against the wall down on the bottom of the stairs and again luckily a colleague came across me as they were coming in that morning and as they would naturally do, they call the paramedics. And then unfortunately with that event I had a like so as soon as my defibrillator returned me to normal at the bottom of the stairs my heart went straight back into those eight seconds again, and I could feel it go straight back in and so I went actually into a second cardiac arrest right away as a rebound. And from that event, because I had the two in a row, they took me to a local hospital and I had to stay in observation for a couple of nights.
34:16 Jamie Poole
But again, I did, I went back to work the Monday after I'd been released from the hospital and I was like, I'm fine, don't need to worry and so I'd already had three cardiac arrests now in two weeks, and I was back at work on the Monday. Again, I probably should have taken some more time off and it came around it was a Thursday, another Thursday and the exact same time in the morning and I made it to the front door of the office, and this is where I started to notice the the physical effects that happen. So this time I felt those eight seconds but I also felt sick and I vomited. And then I tried to call for help on the intercom on the front of the door and obviously Id been at the company for six months so, hundreds of times I'd use that intercom to get into the office. But I just I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't, I didn't know what button to push, even though I think that's obviously like the bit of hypoxia. I couldn't think of how to do it. So I just said I had to sit down and just think about my family, my mom and wait and hopefully fingers crossed wake up in a couple of seconds. And obviously I did.
35:29 Jamie Poole
And it's quite funny I got the same paramedic all three times and he was yeah, he literally like he got his breakfast at a cafe around the corner from our office and he said he's been in the line for a bagel every Thursday for the last four weeks, he hasn't been able to get these bagel because every time he gets a call about a cardiac arrest. So I was like oh sorry. Sorry I died, I'm sorry. Yeah. So those four times and again. At that point, I did take two weeks off. I said okay maybe my body's trying to tell me something. I should take a few weeks off now.
36:12 Jamie Poole
And my company was really, really good. So they, flip, they actually paid for my mom to fly over here to London, and they put her up and accommodation just down the road from my house. And they covered all that and they paid for and they're really amazing with it. So it's just I have been super lucky to be at the place that I work at. And so I spent a mini holiday with mom, two weeks just recovering and getting back to what I would consider normal and a lot of these things as well, especially around that period after I had four in a ____ I was starting to get a little bit of paranoia and double guess yes, it sounds silly but when, I don't believe in the supernatural, but when Thursday came around again, I was like, right, I'm just going to stay in bed all day. I'm okay. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not moving. It's a Thursday. Once Thursday passes I'll be good to go again. But yeah, so there's a little bit of like, I guess, I think one of the, I spoke to a doctor afterwards and see, it might be PTSD or something similar to that, just from the events and, you know, and so just spend those weeks recovering from that, and getting my mind right and back to normal.
37:24 Jamie Poole
And unfortunately, when we all thought it was over and done, it happened one more time so it ended up being five in the span of six weeks. So about two weeks after I went back to work, went up the stairs, fine, everything was normal. I've been working for a couple of days already, went down to get lunch and jogged across the road and it was raining so I did a bit of a power walks, jogged to the cafe. And again, at that point, I was quite proud of myself. I was like, look at me jogging and not freaking out and not worrying about it and who says I've got PTSD, I just jogged across the road.
38:03 Jamie Poole
Probably should have touched wood at that point. I walked up the stairs of the office again, I felt great. I walked up the stairs without even having to pause or reflect or anything like that. I was really, like, really, really pumped. And then my HR manager at the time, she stopped me on the stairs and this is where it started to go wrong I think. So she and I had a chat. And I was fine to have a chat but I definitely wanted to stop at the top of the stairs just to take some deep breaths and compose myself and I knew I needed that. But I didn't want to be the – British coming out of me – I didn't want to be impolite so I kept talking with her. She started to walk into the office and so I was like well, I've got a follow her. I've got to keep talking to her, I can't just stand here and let her go when she's talking to me. So I followed her into the office and felt those eight seconds, I was like, yeah, now I have gone into it now. And as I was walking down the corridor of the office I was looking around and I was like I saw some chairs. I'm like all wondering, if I just sit down here will it go away, will it help and then I thought in my head like okay well I'll make it back to my desk and when I get back to my desk I'll see if I can get myself out of it which again is impossible but it's what I like to tell myself when I go into these things that I can help in some way. So I got back to my desk and then I sat down and woke up with one of my colleagues sort of cradling my head towards the ground. So again just another one of those moments of okay I know what happened now.
39:42 Rob Konrad
That, we are at number?
39:45 Jamie Poole
Yeah that was four so then we're that was six that was the end, that was number six yeah. Yeah I mean if you want so yes and number seven was actually I need to actually look, it's quite funny. I feel really bad. But I've died so many times now I've actually forgotten the order in which I died. Everybody is like how can you forget that stuff. It's like, well, you try and remember doing something nine times. So let me just, I've got like a list. I keep, like a diary of when these things happen. So let me bring this up. But basically, I mean, I guess we don't really need to go into the details.
40:35 Jamie Poole
One of the next ones was at an airport. And so I went back to Australia to get my visa renewed. So it's been three years now, since I've been out, five years actually, since I've been in London, so I had to get my visa renewed and went back to Australia. And luckily, serendipitously, I guess, while I was over there, my grandfather got unwell and so my parents live in Newcastle in Sydney, but my other family lives in Brisbane, which is more north. So I had to fly out there to be with my grandfather and that weekend, my dog died and then as well as though I get, like, it's serendipitous that I was there for these moments. Because it's weird that it all came together in that week and I happened to be there after five years, I happened to be back in Australia for these things. And also my dog died that weekend and I flew up to my grandparents house in Brisbane. And when I was at the airport, again I was not to be yeah, I'm not superstitious, but it was a Thursday.
41:49 Jamie Poole
I did, I have asked my cardiologist like, is there anything, is it because I get to a certain point in the week when my body has had enough I don't know. So it was a Thursday and in Australia, I mean, it might be similar in some European countries but when you get to an airport sometimes you don't go straight to the plane you have to go downstairs, walk and then you have to walk back up the stairs to get to the terminal and so I was a little bit, I'm still a little bit scared of stairs even to this day. And I said, I had my carry on luggage with me. So I took it, this is super easy and really simple and I went really, really slow and I was walking slow for a reason. So it's like, okay, again, it feels hard. I really hate these how hard it feels to walk up the stairs and how hard it feels to walk afterwards and so I was slow and my mom obviously very distressed about her father and she wanted to get out of the airport as soon as possible to get there. She had zoomed ahead and was well on her way out the airport and I was making my way up the gangway towards the terminal and found like, straightaway I felt myself go into that.
43:26 Jamie Poole
I was like, oh, like, really? Like, I was trying so hard not to _____ . And I got out there. And again, I mean, at this point, I should have learnt. But my first thought was, okay, well, if I can just like, maybe I can walk it off, maybe it will go away, maybe it would just go away by itself. Unfortunately, it didn't. And so I just, I was like, no, I've got to stop. So I dropped my luggage and just sat down in the middle of the terminal and I think that raised a few eyebrows of people nearby. And luckily one of the girls or girl nearby us and asked me if I was okay. And I was like, no, I think I'm about to go into cardiac arrest and she went and got the flight staff and went from there and it was one of the more interesting moments in my life where the paramedics come and it's this big fiasco because you're in the middle of an airport, security is rushing over, there is a bunch of people involved and when the paramedics arrived they needed to do an ECG which is the like the leads that keep track of your heart rhythm. But because I've got a little bit of chest hair it wasn't actually sticking to the pads in the middle of the airport they're like okay well we need to take off your shirt and we're going to have to shave your chest hair. There's 300 people standing around me and I'm just there like getting my chest hair shaved off so they could do this. Well that's an experience.
44:34 Jamie Poole
I am never going to forget that feeling. That was probably the most embarrassing moment in my life. But yeah and like again my grandfather passed away that week so it was quite an interesting week and I guess it could have been a lot worse, and that we could have lost my dog. I could have died and my mom could have been, just would have been devastated so luckily, the ICD saved me and medication.
45:02 Rob Konrad
What did your mom say?
45:03 Jamie Poole
So yeah, so obviously, I've been gone now for 20 minutes. I don't know where my mom was. I think she was well out of the airport, waiting for our ride to pick us up. And I got a phone call, ___- sitting down on the ground getting handled by the paramedics and I picked it up. And, this is the relationship we have with each other and my mom's first words are like, where the f are you? And I was like, ah, I just died. Oh again, all right I'm coming back. And like she always blamed me for it. She's like, Jamie like, goddamn like why? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. But um, yeah, no, she did she obviously didn't mean it. She was more concerned about her father's yeah, definitely. Yeah, there was nothing malicious or anything so. But yeah, that was one of them again, though, that was either seven or eight.
46:06 Jamie Poole
And then so the most recent one that I've had was at a hospital actually. So since then, I've been recommended by the doctors here in London to start talking about transplant. And so then, obviously, this has happened seven, eight times now, and it didn't seemed to be stopping in any sense. And they've done a bunch of tests, they've done an AP study, where they fed some like, wires and chemicals out through my groin, I think they literally tried to kill me, that was the point of the test, because they just wanted to see how, like, what would trigger it because they just don't know what was actually triggering these things. So they tried a bunch of things to trigger a cardiac arrest, which is a really weird feeling.
46:51 Jamie Poole
You know it's like I was in this operating theater and laying on a surgical table and all these guys, looking around and they're like, oh, we need you to strip down. I'm like, okay, so I strip down to my underwear and they're like, no you need to, you need to strip down even more. So you are laying naked on this operating table and they're putting these chemicals in and like, okay, now we're going to give you a chemical that's going to try and put your heart into cardiac arrest and you're like okay, I mean you feel like your heart starts going really, really fast really, really fast and nothing happened so that test failed so I think, they've tried out so just I guess they've exhausted all the other surgical options to help with my condition. So I think transplant now is the, apart from medication, I think the medication at the moment is working well enough but transplant, that's the only viable long term option I think.
47:51 Rob Konrad
When did when did you die?
47:53 Jamie Poole
Yeah, I'm getting lost in my side stories. Yeah, I didn't keep track of that day actually. I am not sure what day it was. But yes I was at the transplant hospital. I was getting assessment done to see if I needed it. And a part of that assessment is a treadmill exercise test. I think it's called an MVO2 test which is like an, max oxygen something. Yeah, basically, you wear this Darth Vader mask over your face and they monitor how well you take in the oxygen and convert it. And so I'd done that previously. This wasn't the first time that I had done it. And in the past, I had started to get that feeling of what like, again, like because I'm a little bit ___ , I got that little bit of paranoia even if I start to feel that feeling, even if it's not the real feeling, even if I start to feel something like it, I'll freak out and I'll stop what I'm doing and just try and calm back down to normal. So in the past I got to that point where I've had this little mini freak out and not stop the test. And I guess the way the test is run is that you're not allowed to stop because they want to see how well your body handles exercise at that level. They can't have you have a recovery period, you need to have that solid 10 minutes of data before they can go on.
49:24 Jamie Poole
And so this time I've been playing tennis, so feeling fitter than I had normally and I was like, okay, I've got this, I'm not going to stop this time. I'm going to last the whole 10 minutes and it's going to be fine. And so I jumped on and it's going well, six minutes in and I still felt fine. And then just like a snap, I felt the feeling and again, it's as even though as determined as I was to keep going, I can't describe that dread that you feel at that moment. It's just no matter how resolved I was to keep going, there's a deeper part of my brain that just told me stop what you're doing, you're about to die. And so I told the cardiologist, to the physiologist who was with me on the treadmill, and I said, I just felt the feeling, I really want to stop. And he's looked at his ECG, monitor to my side and he said, no, everything's fine, keep going. And so, then a nurse put her hand on my back to keep me on the treadmill. And then from that moment on, that was obviously the eight seconds because I remember seeing him then slam the emergency stop button on the treadmill on the side, he's yelled out, I need some help in here. And then I've gone down and had a nice dream of a warm yellow feeling and woke up and so look down and the nurse was pumping oxygen into my mouth. And the physiologist was doing CPR compressions on my chest because they had actually turned off my ICD to do that.
51:02 Jamie Poole
So yeah, so it's quite interesting you know, I do, they told me that they turn these ICDs off in this test to prevent a false shock. So when you exercise, your ICT might be tricked into thinking that you're going into cardiac arrest. And I'm like, well, the irony is, I actually did go into cardiac arrest and you had turned it off. So yeah, they had to do the full CPR and yeah, I was in I think it was Code Blue, there's a blue light flashing in the background, and 12 other doctors, some of them still had like gloves and masks on. They probably just come running from wherever they were currently doing it and they were just standing around me. There was a funny moment after I recovered have been, one of the nurses that put her hand on my back she went over to one of the cardiologists and she was like, oh, it's weird, so he knew it was coming before it came up on our machines. And I was like, I think I told you so. Next time listen.
52:02 Jamie Poole
I'm not just being I'm not just being unfit, I'm not just complaining for complaints sake. And then after that, they obviously advise that I don't do exercise. And yes, I've wanted to, starting to feel a bit more fit lately and the last couple of months and I've really tried to investigate going to gyms a bit more, but gyms just go like, no, we can't, we can't even begin to insure you unless you're going to get like a written statement from the cardiologist and a letter from the transplant hospital and both of them and said, no, so, I'm like okay well. But yeah, nice. That was the last time it happened.
52:38 Rob Konrad
That was how long ago?
52:39 Jamie Poole
So that's actually been about a year now, coming up to 18 months. Getting a little bit paranoid again, but it's, the ticking time bomb in my chest is probably due for another one anytime soon.
52:55 Rob Konrad
How has this changed you as a person?
52:58 Jamie Poole
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to think definitely, I mean, as you can tell, I joke about this stuff a lot. And that's the way that I deal with this condition and I definitely think the way I've handled it has helped to keep me normal in some way. I'd like to think I'm still just as outgoing, happy and fun loving as I always was. It's definitely made me just realize, I don't know if I probably wouldn't have come to London if I hadn't had this. It's that idea of like, why not? You've got one life it's not very long don't not do things, don't make up excuses to do stuff and so it's definitely I think my day to day now I'm taking a little bit more risk.
53:56 Jamie Poole
Especially when I go on holidays and things like that. Recently I went to Las Vegas and I went shooting just because I wanted to go shooting and rest up again, I'm left handed so the bud of the gun sticks up against that area and everyone's like oh don't do it. Well the worst case that happens is I die and I get brought back to life. There's the two scenarios that happen is – I die and get brought back to life or I just die. Either way, I'm not going to really know the difference. I'm either going to continue on living like I normally live on, I won't know the difference anyway. And so that's a little bit more of a risk taking attitude that I've gotten out with a lot of things. There's a lot of rides and stuff at theme parks where they're like don't do this with a heart condition and I like to ignore those warnings just to yeah, I like to think that well, they probably won't even notice if I die. By the time the ride ends, I'll wake up anyway. I'll be I'll be awake and everything will be back to normal and I'll just walk away like nothing happened.
55:00 Rob Konrad
Are you afraid of dying in terms of that, that thing won't save you once?
55:04 Jamie Poole
Yeah, well, that's the scary part. And I mean, and that was probably the hardest news to hear from and I mean, it wasn't the greatest advice from a nurse. But I was getting wheeled out of one of the hospitals after one of my stays and I was talking about my flipping attitude towards it. And she was like, you know, it's not going to save you every time, right? And I'm like, no, like, why would you say that like, don't tell me that. And so that really was like, oh shit. That was a bit of a shock to hear and definitely, and people have asked me especially in those final moments and stuff, it's like, oh, well, like, do you know you can, do you know it's going to work? And I guess the answer is no. So a lot of the time is, I might act like I've got the benefit of hindsight now to joke about it. But in those eight seconds, in those moments, I know that there is a high chance that I might not wake up after those eight seconds. So it's definitely adds to that fear, I guess and adds the anxiety around feeling those eight seconds definitely builds into this big fear of it.
56:20 Rob Konrad
And, but that device is not like a pacemaker right?
56:22 Jamie Poole
56:24 Rob Konrad
So, why don't you have a pacemaker as well? That might keep your heart stable.
56:28 Jamie Poole
Yeah, so I mean, the way I understand it again, people in the medical field probably scream that I'm saying inaccurate, but a pacemaker is there to actually pace your heart's rhythm on a full time basis. So people who need a pacemaker have conditions where their heart can't naturally keep a steady rhythm going by itself, so it needs some assistance with a pacemaker. And the pacemaker is always on option whereas my heart from what I understand it 99% of the time my heart and everything about me is completely normal. And then it's just those one sec, those eight second moments where my heart for some random reason, chooses to have a dummy fit and go into cardiac arrest rhythms. So in that case, I don't necessarily need constant monitoring. I just need it to work for those eight seconds. And so I guess there's a difference in power needs and all those technical stuff. But yeah, I think the difference is, is people who need pacemakers actually needs constant support in a rhythm, whereas I just need it to shock me back to life when I go into cardiac arrest. And pacemakers, I think there are _____ function ones, but pacemakers by themselves don't provide that ability to shock you back if you do go into to arrhythmia.
57:59 Rob Konrad
I mean, you've had nine close calls and let's hope not but then in theory, the 10th might be last one, or 11th. Have you prepared for this?
58:13 Jamie Poole
No, I mean, I definitely have had to have conversations and serious things. Like, I've had this, seriously sit down and think, how do you handle dying in the 21st century? Especially, what happens to I guess, I've almost got a benefit in knowing that it's coming. You know, really? I didn't know the best way to say that but it's, should I start preparing myself? Questions like, should I what should I do with my Facebook channel, what do I, like all my photos that I have ever taken are on my Facebook account? I don't really you know, they're either on Cloud Storage that I use, different cloud platforms or Facebook and on social media. And so how do my family get access to any of my content, when I pass away and things like that. And so, I've definitely or probably more so than the normal 30 year old had to think about how do I handle this, if worse comes to worse.
59:23 Jamie Poole
And even, the scary part now being in London is obviously so far away from my family I've got no family here in the UK, so, if there is a time period before it actually happens, maybe I get too sick and it goes down that route, especially with the transplant route, do I want to be in England for that process and will I be well enough to fly back to Australia or will my family have to fly here? So it's definitely stuff I don't like to think about. But it's things that I've had to think about, I guess. And those aren't the fun reflective moments of my day.
59:23 Rob Konrad
Have you like planned it out till the end? So have you decided you want to have cremation or want to be buried or?
1:00:18 Jamie Poole
No, I haven't made any formal plans. I mean I'm definitely an advocate for donations. I have got my Australian donor card, my UK donor card. Definitely I think, I mean I'll go on a little spiel here but in the UK and Australia at least it's an opt in system for donations. So you have to manually and specifically go to I think, it's the Ministry of Transport or the Department of Transport and actually say that you want to be a donor and register for a donor and even then your family can veto the process after you've passed away. So it's not even good enough to say that you want to do it yourself, you need to make sure your family's aware of that. And my mom and my family very much aware that I would want to be a donor should anything happen. I mean obviously they won't get to take my heart but hopefully take some of the other body parts.
1:01:13 Jamie Poole
And yeah definitely I think people just need to realize that how much your organs mean to some people, you do not need your organs when you pass away. Your body is a vessel for your brain and consciousness and once you've passed away the rest of your body it's just going rot so might as well put it to use and actually help save some other people. And eventually I'm going to need your heart transplant so it's unfortunately somebody's going to have to pass away but who has accepted that they want to be on the donation list and there is only one heart available for every 10 patients that need them at the moment. So, just literally not enough people donating. So definitely yeah, that's my wishes immediately and then perhaps donate my heart to a university to continue to study. Give me away as a cadaver. I mean, I'm very much of the study, I'm not religious, I'm not superstitious. So my body is a piece of flesh and so they can, I want them to actually do something useful with it.
1:02:23 Rob Konrad
Absolutely. And it's, actually because I've recently talked to Harold Mintz and Harold Mintz was in the year 2000 the first person in the US to be a living donor of a kidney. So I'm going to give away one of my kidneys because I can and someone is going to die today if I don't do it. So that yes, I might wait till the family member needs it or I might just do it right now. So he did that and we're still in touch. And so actually we had been talking, I also told him about that I'm going to talk to you and he had some questions for us. Probably like this I'm going to note them down so you are on the donors list or are on the wait list sorry you are on the wait list?
1:03:10 Jamie Poole
Yeah I'm not sure on the specifics. So I've been told there's a Goldilocks period where you need to be sick enough to need a transplant but you also need to be healthy enough to survive a transplant or have good odds to survive. And at the moment, I'm I don't think I'm sick enough but I'm being seen by the transplant team regularly so that as soon as the moment comes that I need to be on the list that I'll be put on that list. And I think there's even multiple lists, there's an emergency list and then there's just a waiting list and then there's a third list as well. And then even then they get broken down by British citizens and then European citizens and then Australia like other citizens so , there's plenty of lists and I'm not sure technically where I stand on that. But yeah, I'm definitely in that process and going through that process.
1:04:04 Rob Konrad
So one of the questions that Harold had was if you ever wondering into the moment where you get a transplant who that heart might be from?
1:04:14 Jamie Poole
Yeah definitely I mean so I've got a cousin who has had to go through the transplant process already so I got to learn a lot from watching them go through the experience and I think there's definitely this, it's a really, I guess it's an emotional question really because you do have to come to terms that in the case of a kidney luckily people can donate kidneys without passing away so there's still a consideration that but with a heart you have to realize that somebody has died to give you that heart. Some family out there is grieving and they're going through loss and you've got this person's body part within you. So you do have to reconcile that. And people, I think, deal with that in certain ways. And I don't know how I would deal with it until I go through it, I guess or get to that experience. But watching my cousin, I know that it's such a personal moment of reflection.
1:05:20 Jamie Poole
And so, how I would deal with I'm not sure. I mean, I don't know if I'd want to ______ . It's one of those things because, you go, am I going to, like, would that family be proud of me? Would they want their child's heart to be within me or am I going to do that heart justice and there's a lot. If I find out that the heart belonged to this amazing, really accomplished person, is there responsibility then knowing that to do something more. So there's a lot of questions that you obviously think about and you just have to go through. And I think in many situations people choose not to acknowledge the person and I think that's a valid point on itself.
1:06:13 Jamie Poole
I don't know if you've seen the recent movie Vice, which was about Dick Cheney. It's a comedy, biography ish type movie on Dick Cheney who is the vice president of America and he had a heart transplant. And so he had one in and in the movie, they make a point in demonizing him and saying that oh he's such a cold person because when he got his heart, he never referred to it as somebody else's heart. He always referred to it as his new heart. And I took issue to that because, how people deal with such a big emotional thing is going to vary and you're not necessarily a bad person if you don't necessarily want to think that somebody else's, if you want to forget that negative aspect to it and that's something that should be something that's personal to that person. And it doesn't mean they're bad person. It just means that that's how they want to do, that's how they want to reconcile this process and this thought.
1:07:21 Jamie Poole
Yes, I think I'm not sure exactly how I'll deal with it. I think it's just going to have to be something ______ I mean, I'd like to think that I'll still be lighthearted, I don't know, I'll still joke about it. I think that's ingrained way much too much of my personality not to joke about it. I'll be making jokes about who's heart it is I'm sure and that I've got somebody else's heart and all the puns and jokes you can think of. But yeah I think until that happens I'm just not sure.
1:07:50 Rob Konrad
Okay. Do you think you would take over some characteristics of the other person?
1:07:54 Jamie Poole
Yeah I mean, that's the supernatural question isn't it? How much does the, I mean I don't think so at all. And then in retrospect I do kind of agree with Dick Cheney and that a body part is a body part and I think that's what people need to realize more is that yeah I think one of the biggest reasons that people don't get donations is because they feel like their organ is theirs. It's like it's a part of, it contains their life or it's a part of the living experience and really where machines only know it's just it should just be a matter of taking out one part and putting in another part. It's not, it hasn't, it doesn't know the life it's lived. It doesn't, apart from the health conditions that people may have it doesn't have a memory or it doesn't act as if it's oh no this is a this is Jamie's heart or this, it's like no it doesn't know that. It's just another it's like going to the mechanic and getting a new carburetor put in a car. It's just putting in a new spare part which obviously again it's probably hard for people going through the grieving process, to think of it that way. And I can definitely understand it but there is such a donation problem at the moment and I think people attributing these feelings of attachment and saying such and such was a painter and now you're going to be a painter it's nothing that's just that I can definitely understand it I just don't think it's the right healthy case for it.
1:09:34 Rob Konrad
And now looking at the other side of things I mean you mentioned that, that great person who's heart you might get potentially what if you would get a heart from like this wife beating, child molesting, racist, I don't know dude and you know it. Would you mind, would you care?
1:09:51 Jamie Poole
Well yeah, I mean, personally I wouldn't care and again I can't speak for everybody that goes through the process because it is such a personal thing but in saying about that, for me, it's just, it's a part, it's a new part. And I think there's a really great advertising, I'm in advertising so I love to keep track of advertising. And there was a really great advertising campaign done by the American Heart Association or a similar organization where it's actually I recommend everybody to go Google this. It was about this really arsehole of a person and he was really, in his day to day life, he had like racist stickers on the back of his car. And when it came to like, he went to a cafe and he didn't tip the waitress and he slapped her on the bum and like, and so the premise is this guy was a nasty piece of work his entire life. But he dropped out of a cardiac arrest just after he left the cafe and they found out that he had an organ donor card in his wallet. And so it's like, well, you can be a nasty piece of work your entire life but you can actually do some good after it by being a donor. And so it doesn't really matter how bad you are a person in your life, just being a donor to help somebody else then live a life so yeah it's I don't think it would affect me at all.
1:11:21 Rob Konrad
And then Harold had another question which I found quite interesting. Let's say you would be at the point where it's so bad that you really need a heart now basically and it's this or the worst way and you know if funds wouldn't be an issue would you consider a heart from the black market because there is a black market for organs, would that be something?
1:11:47 Jamie Poole
I mean, it's scary to think. I mean, I definitely obviously wouldn't make that, it wouldn't be in my top 10 of situations. Before it got to that point, I feel like there's these machines called Elvads, which is like a digital device that acts like a heart. So there have been cases of people who have lived up to two years on these machines. So they've literally haven't got a heart in their body, they've just got this machine and it sort of sits as a backpack, on their belt and runs through that. So I think there's definitely that. That would get me by for at least two years, if worse, came to worse and hopefully by then a legitimate donor gets matched. And after that I would start perhaps looking at more the experimental technology, of the stem cell grown hearts and the actual machine replication, heart replicated and things like that. So it's definitely, it's not something that I'd want to consider but I mean, obviously you don't want to die. I couldn't say, if all of my options were exhausted. I definitely I wouldn't throw it off the table but it's not. I definitely don't want it to get out, I don't want to put out there that it's not in my top, like it's not something that I'm going to like be like oh okay I'm going to go, I can't get a heart transplant now in the next six months or two years I'm going to go buy a heart. I'm not like that's it's just that would be the worst of the worst case scenarios.
1:13:24 Rob Konrad
And then it's a tough question I mean you never know how you react when your life is on the line.
1:13:29 Jamie Poole
Again it also depends on even if it's a black market heart, has the person died naturally, we obviously don't want to be an accessory to murder in a sense that you don't want to be a part of an industry that has literally killed somebody to give you a heart. I don't think that it's appropriate I mean from a black market point of view that I would only ever consider is if it is, some natural heart that has been privately donated or the family has decided to instead of donating it publicly, is donating it through monetary means. It's definitely something that, there's levels within that you'd have to consider. But yeah, something I don't, definitely it shouldn't even be on the table. It's yeah, it's a shame that, that industry exists.
1:14:17 Rob Konrad
But I guess I mean that's something for everyone who's watching this or listening to this go ahead get your organ donor cards. I mean I'm also not an organ donor, well not yet, but I will be at some point and as you said I mean, the body is a, it's a box full of spare parts that someone might need at some point and now it takes a few minutes to fill that thing.
1:14:40 Jamie Poole
Yeah of course yeah and I think especially in Europe I think the tides changing to make it an opt out system which I really hope so I think
1:14:49 Rob Konrad
Denmark or something like that they have this opt out system which is way better than _____ percent donor rate which is exactly how it should be.
1:14:58 Jamie Poole
Exactly, you know, I think as soon as it becomes opt out, donation shortages won't be an issue because there'll be so many organs available that there'll be more organs than there will be people who need them so I think definitely support politicians that support opt out and go from there and, still if you have religious objections you can object but by default it will be taken as being in instead of out.
1:15:26 Rob Konrad
You mentioned that, now that you mentioned religion you're an atheist. Have you always been an atheist? Has that changed since you had your experience?
1:15:38 Jamie Poole
I mean it's interesting and I mean I look forward to seeing the comments on this especially when I've said this in previous interviews that I've had in newspapers is, straight away I've had death threats on Facebook from Christians saying that they're going to send me to hell and I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Jesus and the afterlife and yeah there was a Chinese person who actually messaged me on Facebook saying that they weren't the perfect Christian but they think that I should, I'm going to hell if I don't believe and such and such sounds like wow like I didn't like you're Chinese like I didn't necessarily think that Christianity was that big in China , and I'm pretty sure Facebook's a legal so you're breaking the law to threaten me about going to hell. I was like that's, that's dedication but um no so yeah I am an atheist. I've always been an atheist. It's always seemed to make sense to me. I've never really grown up religious in any sense and even to the point you know I do believe that I've become a stronger atheist since these events than before.
1:17:08 Jamie Poole
I think I definitely lose my patience a little bit more these days with people who claim they've had near death experience. They claim they've experienced the afterlife from these events. And it's not so much, I definitely don't think they're lying. I know firsthand now, that they could experience something and that they are perhaps experiencing something. For me like I start to lose patience now in that arrogance of saying that because they experienced it, that makes it the afterlife. Well that makes it real and again being an atheist and scientifically minded all my life, I'm much more inclined to know or think that my brain is very easily tricked and it's not infallible and I just sort of lose patience with people that think that their brains are so special that just because they had a nice dream of meeting Jesus that means that it really happened and they went to and again on these experiences you never really meet a Christian who wakes up and says they met Mohamed, you never really, you don't have the Muslim wake up and was like oh actually the Christian God is real, and I went to heaven not to, there weren't 72 versions so you know. It's so subjective to your local experience.
1:18:23 Jamie Poole
I previously have been to New York and I really like New York, so I can imagine why that manifested in ____ but I can imagine that helps explain why that manifested in my experience and I know from the chemical dumps of adrenaline, all the different neurological chemicals that are going through your brain. I mean like when people talk about near death experiences like that your body is freaking out like it's going through such an experience and it's doing everything it can to grasp on to some functioning level and how can you say that you can trust your body at that point? Like how can you say that your brain I mean, you can trick your brain right now by googling optical illusions and no chemicals are needed at all. You can make yourself think that a circle is moving when it isn't. So if you can't even differentiate when you're awake and you're conscious that something is real, or it isn't real, how can you differentiate when you're going through this experience like that, that something is real and not real. So yeah, I think, I started to lose a little bit of patience since I've had all these events. And so it's definitely strengthened by atheism in a way from that point of view.
1:19:35 Rob Konrad
Okay, it's the same with psychedelic drugs ____ a few months ago and the drug he's been researching DMT. He's been researching it for a few years, in the mid 90s and the funny thing is people went through very similar experience regardless of their belief and their status and where they're coming from and when we talked he's ____ where he believes that this might be actually a pathway or a doorway to whatever else there is.
1:20:12 Jamie Poole
I think he obviously will know much more about the science behind it than I do. But from face value, when I look at something like that, I would probably suggest that it's actually the opposite. The fact that everybody regardless of that belief, or that background is experiencing the same thing, that should say perhaps that, that is the actual way that, that chemical reacts with the human body. So it doesn't matter if you're Muslim or Christian, if you're all experiencing the same thing, it just shows that you're all human and that this chemical has a certain reaction with human bodies that causes this experience. I mean, he obviously will know more about the science and what's possible or not possible and he's free to have his own beliefs and be yeah, I mean, I feel like there's always more of a more natural explanation to these other things than jumping to the supernatural.
1:21:07 Rob Konrad
Did you ever have any experiences of psychedelic drugs that would be similar?
1:21:10 Jamie Poole
No, no, I mean, I've tried to keep clear of psychedelic drugs. In terms of what has changed in my life I definitely have a much more different relationship with alcohol and drugs. I don't want to either just a) flat out poison my body the more than I it is poisoned and, I'm on quite a few medications as it is. And then the other part is that I don't want to alter my perception of life to a point where life for me is the way I experience at the moment is everything and so experiences are everything and living, just living is everything to me. And so I don't want to ruin that by perceiving it in any other way I guess. So that definitely has changed my attitude towards the different chemicals and drugs and alcohol as well.
1:22:12 Rob Konrad
How has this impacted your social life? How do your friends react or are your friends afraid? Because I have to be honest, we've been in touch for a while now and and it's probably completely strange but when you didn't reply right away, I was always thinking, oh, Jesus did he die between the last email and why is he not replying It's probably a stupid thought to think but it goes through your head, or at least went through my head. So do you have friends who say, oh, maybe we shouldn't yo know do this or that with him because what if he dies while we're playing poker or are at the restaurant?
1:22:52 Jamie Poole
Yeah, I mean, I definitely I think I've tried to make my heart like, I think my friends know now that it's something I live with but it's not something that let's stop me and any events that are on the alcohol or going out, but I'm still the first one to go out to the pub and go sit out, out to a club afterwards. I don't definitely don't let it stop me. I just don't participate in some of the more, the drug taking and that thing. So it's definitely like I'm still out there and doing it and my friends know, I will tell them when I hit my limit. And worst case scenario is I'll tell them when I feel that eight second feeling. So they've been really understanding, and they've been great in helping me, especially when I walk these days and go upstairs, you know. I need to take 20 seconds to calm down and I still get a little bit anxiety when I walk and when I go up especially when I go upstairs. Stairs have killed me 8 times now so every time I go up a set of stairs I'm just like, not this time. Not this time.
1:24:03 Jamie Poole
So I do I have a little bit of anxiety in that way and they've been really supportive and understanding that I need to take a break every now and again. But it does definitely, when you're meeting somebody new and dating and things like that, you do have to see that, just suck it up a little bit or it's quite funny. As you're saying, you know, like you didn't know if I'd passed away or, you didn't know if I died of cardiac arrest, or not.
1:24:28 Jamie Poole
I was actually talking to a girl online and on the dating apps and we'd arrange to have a date night so that was just before I went into cardiac arrest last time at the treadmill. And so this is because I think that actually, to be fair, I don't want to say it but I think it may have been a Thursday and now that I think about it because I was in hospital from they kept me in observation Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and I was supposed to go out that weekend. And I remember messaging her on the Sunday and just being like, oh, sorry, I didn't get in touch. I died on Friday, like I died last week, I couldn't, we couldn't go out. And so what do you mean you died like, and then I had to go through the whole story and it is definitely a talking point when you do meet new people and everybody wants to ask a hundred questions and but now it's more especially now when you just got to, I joke about it.
1:25:21 Jamie Poole
So when people and whenever somebody makes a pun like oh I like I literally died when I found out about such and such and I'm like you know try it someday. I'll tell you about literally dying and that stuff. It's just you know, just going to make fun of it and I think that people yeah and put it even to a negative effect and they probably, people now socially think of it more as a joke than an actual serious you know it's just a joke that I tell people now. Not an actual thing that I go through. But yeah, that's the better way to handle it.
1:25:57 Rob Konrad
Well, where do you take your sense of humor from?
1:26:00 Jamie Poole
I'm not sure I mean I think it's just like, I like to think it's very Australian. I mean I don't know how true that is. I think it's a little bit of patriotism in myself. I feel like always have grown up in a very, I've never had any worries and the Australian phrase, you know, no worries, it's like, you don't really have to have an even even people you know, ask me now it's like, well, aren't you worried about being in England and all this? And I'm like, well, no, the benefit of being Australian is that the worst case scenario is I have to go back to Australia. It's like I have to go back to Australia. Oh my God, I've got to go to a place called the Sunshine Coast and live out there the rest of my life like back there and so really I don't have to worry about that. And Australia's got a good healthcare system which again, so I don't have to worry about that and I haven't had to worry about that here in England. So I think, it's definitely afforded me the ability to keep it in, just compartmentalize it into the back of my mind and not worry about it. And that lends itself into just making jokes at its expense. And I think, yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I think we've always, I've grown up on Comedy Pro. Yeah, I couldn't even say where I get my sense of humor from there. Yeah, it's definitely the way I deal with it. Yeah.
1:27:24 Rob Konrad
And does it impact the way you plan your future. Like, you mentioned that at the moment, you're single. So if you would find a partner and know you would think about kids, for example, would you say maybe, maybe that's not something because you never know and I have this condition or?
1:27:37 Jamie Poole
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I do want kids and then I have a ___ then to think about, the genetic screening treatments and, follow there's a new process called CRISPR, which has the possibility of selectively getting rid of this gene that's in our family or, the different options around that. And then obviously age comes into it as well and I do worry that time is ticking and things like that. And it's quite some of it. It's quite, you know.
1:28:16 Jamie Poole
When I go to the transplant hospital, they've got a plaque on the wall and the plaque is, we've got the world record for the longest surviving heart transplant patient. And I'm like, oh, well, that's reassuring. And then you look and it's like, 28 years and you're like, well, I kind of want to live longer than another 28 years kind of thing and so you just think like well, if I have it now, will I be healthy enough in 15 years when they're a teenager and things, so, yeah, it's definitely something that I do think about, I do want to think about and planning for it.
1:28:52 Jamie Poole
But then there's also, I'm not there yet with my career. I've had a great time here in London. I have been in London now for six years. I do want to make America my next stop. So my next chapter I want it to be in the United States how does health insurance play out on that, how does the political situation you know, luckily with Obamacare recently, in the last couple of years, I can actually get insurance because if I went there previously, most of the insurance companies probably just wouldn't even insurance me or they wouldn't, they just have ridiculously high premiums and now with, the more the latest changes, I can at least get insured and be treated the same way. So we'll see how that plays out on the new government and future governments. But I definitely have to keep my eye on those things. The biggest thing that does stop me from moving to America is health so it's the it's the one thing you know, it's not the money, it's not job, it's not anything else. It's like what's the health insurance like, what will I do for health insurance, so it's definitely something to keep track of in my future plans.
1:29:54 Jamie Poole
And then there is the expectation, I guess, from cardiologists, you know, I take it very lightly, but I think cardiologists expect that, it is going to get worse soon or quickly? And so, it's this unknown that I have to plan for. What if I do need a transplant next year? What if I need it in two years? How does that process happen? A lot of it is also because I lived outside of Australia for so long now that I'm not on their medical system anymore, like as a patient so if I was to go back, if I was to need a heart transplant and I decided to go back to Australia to go with it with my family, I'd have to go back onto the Australian system. I'd have to go through all the processes of seeing the cardiologists, of doing the tests, of getting all those steps and that's not going to be a quick process. That may take six months on its own. So not only do I need to know six months in advance if I need a transplant, I need to make sure that I'm healthy enough to travel back to Australia within those six months to get a transplant. So that process yeah it's definitely I mean, it definitely complicates my future plans but in saying that, I feel like I have this bug of I've been sharing the risk and I do just want to, I think my next move is to pack up England and move to New York and also to make my next chapter and also that I'll see how it pans out. Again worst case scenario I have to go back to Australia so that's the worst case scenario.
1:31:39 Rob Konrad
In terms of your I mean the psychological components of it, you mentioned that you had these like almost PTSD like symptoms where you know Thursdays are obviously a thing that's not too high on your priority list, I guess then the stairs also, so what does it do to you in your day to day life?
1:31:57 Jamie Poole
Yeah, so I mean, I do, it's really hard, I guess for me just to even tell the differences and, I do try to work on it, but I went to a counselor once to get help, these feelings and so at the moment I walk and then I'll maybe get five minutes or 10 minutes and I'll get stuck in it. Like, it's quite funny, I can now tell when I'm starting to get anxious about it. So, it's just, it's a quick phrase, even to the point where, one of my friends will be like, oh, you haven't stopped recently. And then like, that is just like,I haven't stopped. Should I stop? Should we keep going and then and then that like causes me to get anxious and then that feeling of being anxious is similar to the feeling of going into cardiac arrest so you know, a really quick vicious cycle that speeds up and then I just, I just like no, I have to stop, I have to stop like I'm just gonna stop and stand here for five minutes and just get my breath.
1:32:59 Jamie Poole
And so again, being with friends that understand that and are really supportive of that has helped. But yeah, I like to joke that I'll stop in the middle of the road if I have to, and I have stopped in the middle. I was crossing Trafalgar Square here in London and I felt that feeling and I was like, well, it's quite a wide road so I could either try and push through it, I would just stop in the middle of the road and so I stopped in the middle of the road and just waited for 20 seconds and people beeping their horns and I'm just like, well, I haven't been hit by car yet, but I've died nine times from walking and so I just kind of, I'll take my chance, I'll take my chances with the cars. I think I've probably got a better rate of survival there.
1:33:40 Jamie Poole
So yeah, it's definitely, there is this element, I do need to get over but I once started a counselor and he's like, okay, well, when you feel those feelings keep walking like just just push through them. You'll slowly train your body to realize that they're nothing, they're just your brain playing tricks on you. And so I was like, okay, great. So we went out the back of the hospital. We went for a walk. And the counselor's like how are you feeling? I'm like, oh yeah, I'm feeling fine. And then now I felt like this feeling. I was like, I felt the feeling like, I really want to stop now. And he's like, no, let's just keep walking, keep pushing through it. So I got about two seconds more and I was like, nope, it's done. And then so I sat down, I went into cardiac arrest. And so it's like, I guess ____Yeah, so I'm just, well you're here you know, your job to get me over these things. And you've practically just proved that the feelings I feel could you know, not all cases obviously, but they could lead to a cardiac arrest and so it definitely makes me so, you have to evaluate each time like, is it really worth walking? Like, if I feel like I need to stop, is it worth me keep going, considering it could lead to my death so it's kind of that idea like, you know, if I take – so you do sort of get stuck in this loop.
1:35:06 Jamie Poole
So if I take another step, like you do start watching your steps like I can't even take another step and I've frozen up a few times on stairwells because I'm like, if I take one more step up the stairs, I'm going to die so you do get into the dark cycles in your head. But yeah, it's definitely I think it's getting a bit more manageable and that comes over time. And, it does take about 18 months or so, like I said previously, to actually almost start to forget that you've got the condition and so you get back to normal but there is a big period where you're constantly paranoid, and nightmares and all that stuff that comes with the PTSD type symptoms.
1:35:51 Rob Konrad
We started the interview where the conversation was mentioned that this is actually quite common condition to have. Is there anything people can can people test for this?
1:36:02 Jamie Poole
Yeah, so I think nowadays they are quite advanced on the testing and they can do gene testing as well to see if you've got specific chains. I think the UK has been really good on getting just general cardiac testing out to young people because like in my case, the biggest killer I guess of this condition is that people just assume that you're young, fit and healthy, you don't have a problem and so they think oh, you played soccer, you played cricket your entire life like you're fit and healthy, young, you don't have a heart condition. Only really big 65 year olds who've eaten junk food all their lives have heart conditions and so that's the most dangerous aspect of it and I think getting people to realize that no, even like you know, unfortunately there was a case of a girl who the same weekend as Carrie Fisher, Princess Leia passed away from a cardiac arrest. That same week, there was an eight year old girl in Ireland who passed away from it on a flight back home to Ireland.
1:37:12 Jamie Poole
And it's that realization that like, just, she was a perfectly normal, healthy, seemingly healthy eight year old girl. But she had this hidden heart condition that didn't go checked and it just randomly chose that moment to go into cardiac arrest. I think making sure that just because you think that you're young, fit and healthy, go get yourself checked out and I think there's a more famous example of a football player, I think he played for Tottenham. And he actually had a cardiac arrest on the pitch. This is a professional athlete, who, he's been probably working out 10 hours a day for all his life, and yet, he just dropped dead on on the football pitch from a cardiac arrest because of a condition that he didn't even know he had. So yes, definitely get yourself tested. Your general practitioner, you're local doctor should be able to point you in the right direction.
1:38:10 Rob Konrad
Before I close this conversation. There's two questions I always ask at the end. The first question is this is about, you know, extraordinary people in different fields and from different places around the globe. And you certainly are extraordinary.
1:38:27 Jamie Poole
I've died nine times, I don't feel like…
1:38:31 Rob Konrad
Dying nine times but also I think inspired by how positive you are and by how you managed to remain your good spirits and your humor and everything. Who do you consider to be someone extraordinary?
1:38:47 Jamie Poole
I mean, for me, I guess sticking with the science theme, yeah and also, I guess a science and advertising that way I like I have massive respect for those that help bring science to life and make the scientific method like scientific method and the scientific way, exciting and so for that reason for me, people like Bill Nye and oh my god, Stephen Fry, and my mind's just blanked, and I've been really, really bad at… – the astrophysicist who's also really outspoken about this. I'm like, I can't believe I've blanked on his name. Sorry about that.
1:39:33 Rob Konrad
That's, that colored dude. Yes. Neil.
1:39:37 Jamie Poole
Neil Degrasse Tyson that's oh, yeah, I'm sorry Neil Degrasse Tyson if you do ever see this. You're one of my idols, I just let you know. So it's this idea of, not just being great scientists themselves and contributing in that way but more so the fact of, making it exciting for young people to think about science and making it cool and sexy and making it accessible to everybody. So definitely I have mad props for those guys.
1:40:13 Rob Konrad
And last question what's your message to everyone who's listening or watching?
1:40:19 Jamie Poole
Yeah so I mean for me it's this thing, it's definitely struck home because of this is just you know a lot of people especially the religious , they ask well how can you find meaning if you don't believe in a religion and for me, especially with this all happening, it's I am so awe-inspired that I exist at all, like, it is like, it is unbelievably amazing that I'm still alive. And so that and it's unbelievably amazing that I was even alive in the first place. You know, it took 3 billion years for us to get to a point where it could take life you know, life evolved over another billion years. Scientists will probably correct me on that. But just the fact that then randomly, pregnancy and birth that happened and I became the person I am like, that's just so amazing and so much time ____ people, you know, like, there's always, they say, oh, I don't have a reason for living on you know, it might be, you may get depressed and you feel like you don't have a reason to exist but just existing in its own sense, it's just amazing. So, I'd really want to get out there that just take solace in the fact that you're alive at all, like that is an amazing achievement in itself. Go and enjoy life however you want to. You don't have to be a professional football athlete, just enjoy life how you want to enjoy. There's no standard you have to live to. You're alive so be great, celebrate the fact that you're alive. Birthdays are a massive deal for me. It's literally a celebration of being alive. Yeah that's probably my biggest message is just appreciate being alive.
1:42:12 Rob Konrad
Very cool, thank you so much for your time and ______.
1:42:15 Jamie Poole
Thank you very much.
1:42:17 Rob Konrad
1:42:17 Jamie Poole
1:42:20 Rob Konrad
Cool. So that was that.
1:42:25 Jamie Poole
Yeah sorry I do very long answers.
1:42:30 Rob Konrad
It really fascinating.
1:42:34 Jamie Poole
Yeah it was fun yeah.
1:42:37 Rob Konrad
That's a great last statement, it's…
1:42:42 Jamie Poole
Yeah no it's definitely I've been asked that I got asked that question actually by university students couple of years ago and so that it did make me think on it so that again yeah it's definitely that atheist in me kind of you know we get this question especially when you do talk about your atheism you quite often have to defend yourself and you're constantly oh, well if you don't believe in God how do you fight? How do you even have meaning in life, like how do you be a good person? And you do have to really think about these answers and yeah it's definitely something that I just feel people don't appreciate life enough.
1:43:20 Jamie Poole
And it's even affected me like in movies and things like that you see like John Wick and movies like that and like it's a great action movie and a lot of American movies are very the same and they just go around shooting people up front and center and sure they're bad guys but in the same respect that bad guy has a family and they have parents.
1:43:43 Jamie Poole
They you know like they especially Americans they are so flipping about life. Especially even with their laws like their death penalties and some of the gun laws where you're allowed to shoot somebody, if they step on your property, it's like that's just such a disrespect for life. Like that's just crazy like yeah so definitely that's, the world needs a little bit more respect for life.
1:44:14 Rob Konrad
Next week I'm going to talk to a guy ______ . He was in death row for 28 years for a crime he didn't commit.
1:44:23 Jamie Poole
Exactly you know
1:44:24 Rob Konrad
And that's like holy shit because he's black, like he was in the wrong neighborhood, crooked cop needed the victim like those three black dudes ____ and another one so that cop basically paid off a 14 year old to make statement against him and then ended up in prison for 28 years.
1:44:41 Jamie Poole
It's just yeah you know it is and I think definitely in time like in a Scandinavian countries and European countries are ahead of the curve. And I think even in the UK now they're talking about not even sending people to jail, if it's a crime that would only be a six month like less than a six months sentence. So I think we're slowly getting around to realizing, how important just recognizing how life like life experience and things like that is. Yeah.
1:45:12 Rob Konrad
And what boggles my mind and you said it in terms of numbers like 3 billion years of 1 million. What boggles my mind is I mean just the chances that you and me are here. Each one before us when they went through periods of starvation and I don't know and rape and killings and child deaths and so whatever there was and all our _____ managed to survive somehow.
1:45:38 Jamie Poole
1:45:40 Rob Konrad
This endless chain of generations starting at the tiniest little little micro
1:45:45 Jamie Poole
Like you know, your great great great great great great great great grandfather survived the black plague and you know.
1:45:50 Rob Konrad
Exactly he got shot twice.
1:45:52 Jamie Poole
Yeah, it's just like, unbelievably right, like, and then I like to think so I guess I know the more technical aspects of it all, but just even the fact that we can have a conversation with you in Switzerland I'm not sure where you are at the moment sorry but the fact that we're talking online like right now there's a like my webcam is made up of composite materials that can get they get mine from probably South Africa and one of the materials get some mine from China and what they all come together in a factory, get put together in a webcam, that webcam is engineered in a way that sends an electrical signal to my computer, which then sends an electrical signal off to literally sends an electrical signal have to like to probably America _____ because it's an American thing. So you know signal goes to America. It then goes back to you and then comes from back to you back to America back to all in like instantly, like we're talking instantly and I'm just wait.
1:46:48 Rob Konrad
Pretty much for free I mean
1:46:49 Jamie Poole
Yeah exactly and I'm just like guys can you appreciate that for a second that like the amount of engineering and human effort and thought that has gone into just the things we take for granted every single day. You know it's just amazing and like who figured out how to, you know. I was going to mention it and the people I do admire is people that figure this out like how we can transmit video from a webcam to you know and just all that stuff and it's just ____
1:47:21 Jamie Poole
And again I just feel like that's probably what I mean, I probably could have re-answered that question and like where I get my sense of humor probably I just I just feel like there's just there's so much amazing thing I'm just, so I'm just I walk around in awe of everything. Like I'm just like even just I mean I can't even say it, the screens, right now the screen we're looking at, it's flickering 60 times a second like you're eye can't even tell that it's changing pixel 60 times a second like the amount of engineering needed to do that, it's just amazing, yeah. I'm geeking out a little bit but yeah.
1:48:03 Rob Konrad
Actually just recently I've been thinking about same thing because we're the same age I'm 36. So
1:48:08 Jamie Poole
1:48:10 Rob Konrad
Like, I remember when I was young, and I mean, the stuff was somehow everything felt complicated, like setting up computers were like…
1:48:18 Jamie Poole
1:48:19 Rob Konrad
Something always didn't work and you needed to get like drivers and stuff and you need to kind of put it together. And I like that nowadays. I think that there's an app for everything. Like if I'm you know count my like the exactly, there was I recently watched like, if you have like a bunch of logs, for example, lying around, it would be so great if there would be an app that could just count that. There is literally an app, just snap a picture and that thing overlays numbers from one to 250. Come on! This is so amazing, all this stuff is like so freaking amazing. _____ .
1:49:01 Jamie Poole
____- is also amazing like again to think that those could have been an Indian that wrote the code for that and so they're living their life in India, they've got a family to support, they're writing on their computers and they've created a thing that you are in Switzerland now using to count logs. It's just crazy how much of a global community we are.
1:49:21 Rob Konrad
You know the other way around I mean these things I'm having them all transcribed for various reasons and I mean the first thing is there's a tool called otter.ai and yeah that's like an AI transcription service which is like free for 600 minutes per month which is like so you upload a file and then take like five minutes and to get a pretty darn good automatic translation. It shows you the text, it reads while you basically, while the workshop you can just go in and edit them for free that's what and then I'm having some Indian guys because it's not it's not hundred percent perfect. So I'm having actually having three Indian guys go through these things. But it's a pain the ass and we had like some interviews like three, four hours long and then we have people who will say like, you know every like two sentences or every sentence five times and I need to edit it all out because it's translated. Like that some India is doing it for like I know 7 bucks per hour and it would cost me like half a day and I would be so frustrated and he's happy, he's asking for more and I just wire I don't know, $10 I probably made his day and he made my day.
1:50:38 Jamie Poole
Yeah, it's amazing, it's just yeah, and I mean, yeah, and talking about free I mean, I've got it like, bit contentious but I really do feel sorry for Facebook at the moment with everything it's going through and especially with Europe and they're expecting like Facebook to, especially with Google even where I think there's a big case recently where Europe didn't want, they fined Google for recommending their own products in the search results for products and I'm just like but Google is like it cost money, people take for granted like Google have server farms around the world that uh. Yeah they are many football fields in size, like these things have to have security that mostly going to be built, the amount of electricity that they run through, it's just crazy that it just let alone the hardware itself like the servers and all the little little components that go into it. These a multi million dollar places that they need to run and yet I feel European especially with what's going on with Facebook and the Congress now they kind of they just want them to give it away for free you know to pay the millions to run this then just let everybody use it for free under their own terms and I'm just like and you don't realize everything costs money on the internet.
1:52:22 Jamie Poole
Right now I'm speaking to you through zoom. So our connection is probably going to a zoom data center somewhere in the US. Someone is paying people, someone is paying for the data center, somebody is paying and even the fact, even in a more base level, my connection to you is going through a landline that's connected to BT or whatever, somewhere. BT have had to pay to put that landline in place, they've got to pay to keep it maintained, they've got to pay to keep it running, it's going to a server they've got to pay to keep doing such and such and then even like the the actual underwater cable that connects the UK with Europe that had to get paid. Every single step of the internet is constantly being paid by somebody and everybody's like, oh, no, I should be able to use Facebook without having to give up my data or I should be able to use it for absolutely free and it's like well.
1:52:57 Rob Konrad
And to be quite honest I mean, I personally don't get I mean, okay there are certain limitations to it but if I'm being shown only the stuff that I want to buy, perfect. I mean, I don't want to see options I'm not interested in. Facebook is showing stuff I want to see. How much better could it be.
1:53:15 Jamie Poole
I do think that's a very American thing as well and then everyone's like oh, but they they know so much about you and I'm like honestly, is anyone interested in me? I highly doubt that the CIA is ever going to go can you give me the information on this Jamie? Poor guy and like, tell me all this stuff because I know the CIA is not like I'm not doing anything illegal. Unless you're doing something illegal, you don't have to worry. Like oh, Facebook knows this ____ . I'm like, fine. They can know that. I'm glad they know that. ____ . I guess I do work in the industry so I'm probably a bit biased, but it does annoy me that you know.
1:53:52 Rob Konrad
Louie CK the comedian.
1:54:00 Jamie Poole
1:54:01 Rob Konrad
He has this great bit where he talks about this generation is like ‘my internet didn't work for like two minutes, that's unacceptable'. You spend five bucks a month to have free everything ____ minutes, its ___.
1:54:18 Jamie Poole
Oh my god, like, this cafe doesn't have free Wi Fi. The cafe has to pay for Wi Fi and you just think they should give it to you for free.
1:54:30 Rob Konrad
1:54:33 Jamie Poole
But yeah, that was a good chat.
1:54:36 Rob Konrad
Yeah so thanks again for doing this and I'm going to let yo know when ____ get the data to it. And then
1:54:45 Jamie Poole
Yeah, that'd be good.
1:55:04 Jamie Poole
Yeah talk talking about Facebook it's probably one of my profile picture, take that.
1:55:13 Rob Konrad
Can you send me that through in like the highest resolution you have it that would be perfect?
1:55:18 Jamie Poole
I think I only have a Facebook resolution size.
1:55:21 Rob Konrad
Okay yeah Facebook usually has pretty high resolution. I'll have a look. And if you could send me your like, could be a PO box, but some personal address so I want to like send you a little thank you souvenir or…
1:55:37 Jamie Poole
I'll Skype. I'll send you the link for that picture as well.
1:55:40 Rob Konrad
1:55:51 Rob Konrad
Hey That was fun. Thank you so much. And yeah i mean i hope like what do you say?
1:55:58 Jamie Poole
Yeah, yeah, good luck on your new projects and I hope your podcast as well and everything works out fine.
1:56:11 Rob Konrad
We'll be in touch definitely.
1:56:12 Jamie Poole
Yeah definitely I think ____ and if you can chill out, let me know when you got, when you got it all edited together and I'll look through again and I guess I didn't embarrass myself too much. See if you can cut out the bit where I forgot his name. I just blanked, oh my god he's such an idol, can't believe I'm blanking out his name.
1:56:45 Rob Konrad
I literally asked those last two questions to everyone and I blanked those two last questions once. I was like finally there's two question I'm always asking everyone and I don't remember.
1:56:57 Jamie Poole
I think because you did tell me to think about it, that I over thought it.
1:57:06 Rob Konrad
All right then, hey thanks so much for your time again and stay safe, stay healthy and we'll be in touch.
1:57:11 Jamie Poole
Yeah, enjoy your weekend.
1:57:13 Rob Konrad
Appreciate it. Bye.
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